Curse

ForgottenAccount · Feb 28, 2010, 02:01 AM // 02:01

I like this suggestion, seems like a viable thing to bring to the Mesmer class.
I would like to see some similar effects brought to other skills though, if only because I see this as something I would want to bring in a build and I'd like the flexibility to not be locked in to one skill.

draxynnic · Feb 28, 2010, 06:33 AM // 06:33

I like it. /signed

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

What? We dont want it to be buffed to the level of AP/x because AP builds tend to be very overpowered. In the game, there are many underpowered skills, and only a few overpowered skills. Rather than buffing the underpowered skills to the level of the overpowered skills, they should be buffed to a balanced level and the overpowered skills, like AP, need to be toned down through nerfs.

As long as it's done in that order. Right now, AP is one of the few things keeping the PvE primary Mesmers vaguely usable.

upier · Feb 28, 2010, 07:00 AM // 07:00

The problem?
E-denial is limited to a few guys only so it doesn't really promote building up a varied group. That means it needs to become the new CoP, but it will exclude everyone but mesmers, or it won't see use and this change was for nothing.
As I have said, a Barbs/MoP skill that activates whenever the hexed foe is the target of a spell would promote sticking a mesmer into an existing party resulting in more varied groups rather than tank/monk/6 mesmers.

Premium Unleaded · Feb 28, 2010, 07:16 AM // 07:16

^
zealous weapon mod

Of course, it requires people to actually have a zealous weap but it's not as limited as it may look if there is no threshold of loss before it can be triggered (ie. just a purple -1 would do it).

Anyway, /signed

upier · Feb 28, 2010, 07:41 AM // 07:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Premium Unleaded

^
zealous weapon mod

Of course, it requires people to actually have a zealous weap but it's not as limited as it may look if there is no threshold of loss before it can be triggered (ie. just a purple -1 would do it).

Anyway, /signed

Since when does zealous steal energy?
It just gives the user energy on hit, without any kind of an effect on the foe it is used on.

Unless I am totally missing out on what you meant?

ajc2123 · Feb 28, 2010, 12:51 PM // 12:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The problem?
E-denial is limited to a few guys only so it doesn't really promote building up a varied group. That means it needs to become the new CoP, but it will exclude everyone but mesmers, or it won't see use and this change was for nothing.
As I have said, a Barbs/MoP skill that activates whenever the hexed foe is the target of a spell would promote sticking a mesmer into an existing party resulting in more varied groups rather than tank/monk/6 mesmers.

Activated on spell would be far too easy and powerfull Imo, and that is my biggest problem.

I doubt people would bring bring 6 mesmers over the Mop 6 physicals for a few reasons.

1)The damage output but Ether lord would only be slighty more powerful, if ANYTHING.

2)Foes DO have an energy pool, and 6 energy depleters would certainly get rid of it rather fast.

3) Mesmers are frail frail frail. I would rather bring 6 physicals with better armor than 6 paper classes.

This buff isn't mean to be the next meta/farming build, but it is suggested here to make the energy denial skills at least SOMEWHAT usefull in PvE.

MagmaRed · Feb 28, 2010, 01:26 PM // 13:26

Might even work well with some lesser used PvE skills. Things like Fear Me, Debilitating Shot, Depravity, etc. Could work well to help create new team builds, and possibly bridge the gap between PvE and PvP build creation. Since PvE sees no use from energy denial, this could help change that so PvP is less of a transition.

Yuna, you are seeing a problem with 150 AoE damage? Energy Surge was the only skill you listed with numbers that high, and it is an elite, with a long recharge. Compare it to spells like Rodgorts Invocation, which isn't elite, recharges in 8 seconds, and does 120 damage at the same attribute level you used for ES. I certainly don't see a problem with the numbers, and even if there is one, that can be modified before the change is made.

upier · Feb 28, 2010, 02:05 PM // 14:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajc2123

Activated on spell would be far too easy and powerfull Imo, and that is my biggest problem.

I doubt people would bring bring 6 mesmers over the Mop 6 physicals for a few reasons.

1)The damage output but Ether lord would only be slighty more powerful, if ANYTHING.

2)Foes DO have an energy pool, and 6 energy depleters would certainly get rid of it rather fast.

3) Mesmers are frail frail frail. I would rather bring 6 physicals with better armor than 6 paper classes.

This buff isn't mean to be the next meta/farming build, but it is suggested here to make the energy denial skills at least SOMEWHAT usefull in PvE.

Look at MoP.
40 AoE damage not only on spear damage with 0 in SM, but also minions.
The main idea of a hex doing AoE damage when hit by a spell is to push synergy - if you only have one spellcaster in your team, the damage by such a hex woudl be so minimal that it would probably make sense to just go with another straight up damage dealing caster. If on the other hand you'd a caster-team, the same way that you now have a physical team, that's where a mesmer with such a hex would be a better addition than another caster.
Plus, it prevents CoP-like spikes which would happen if you just gave the mesmers a new toy.

The idea needs to be powerful enough to justify bringing the guy because if you are just trying to make him slightly better, then don't bother. The guy will still be pretty darn crap, so why not waste resources on something that might actually improve his position instead?

Gill Halendt · Feb 28, 2010, 02:12 PM // 14:12

@ upier: Does your suggestion include any spell?

See, like, friendly healing on the target of the MoP-like hex, will they trigger it, or was it meant to work on hostile spells only?

Desert Rose · Feb 28, 2010, 02:20 PM // 14:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

Yuna, you are seeing a problem with 150 AoE damage? Energy Surge was the only skill you listed with numbers that high, and it is an elite, with a long recharge.

One Ether Lord-Caller, three Mesmer with AEcho and ESurge -> 900 armor ignoring AoE damage within 2 seconds. And if you reduce the damage numbers so it is impossible to instagib entire mobs it's too weak to be used elsewhere.

ajc2123 · Feb 28, 2010, 02:36 PM // 14:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The idea needs to be powerful enough to justify bringing the guy because if you are just trying to make him slightly better, then don't bother. The guy will still be pretty darn crap, so why not waste resources on something that might actually improve his position instead?

Because I don't want the Mesmer to become just another overpowered class.

It might be just me, but I don't like the idea of buffing everyone to oblivion. If you want to make any other class more powerful, then other classes/skills should be looked at in this point of the game. A reverse power creep is in order.

Now there are a couple things that SHOULD be looked at PvE wise, such as when the ritualists spirits were such low level, and took forever to cast, it made them pretty much annoying to use that aspect of the ritualist. Now I don't think they should have been quite as powerful as they are now, (100% up time for displacement/union/recuperation/other defensive spirits), but they sort of went in the right direction.

Another thing that needs to be looked at is the players ability to do more damage with a scythe as a sin or warrior than a dervish. something needs to be balanced on the warrior's/sin's side. I am almost tempted to suggest critical strikes affect daggers only, but that is kind of drastic.

Certain things like this should be looked at for balance now. That is why I made this suggestion, my goal here is to open up a use for energy denial skills in PvE for the mesmer. Since this is one of the classes who isn't overpowered (without the use of PvE only skills/cons/and or other profession skills), I would like to keep it so. If other players choose not to bring my into their groups, then that is their choice. I can understand not wanting anything but the best, but I can also understand the concept of easy going play whatever you want to kind of build as long as you are doing SOMETHING way to play.

Granted I digress a lot.

I believe this is the reason you and I cannot come to a agreement on this suggestion. You want the mesmer to at least be on par with other classes, which is totally understandable, I just want more of the mesmers mesmerness to be usefull, even if they aren't on par with other classes.

upier · Feb 28, 2010, 02:59 PM // 14:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

@ upier: Does your suggestion include any spell?

See, like, friendly healing on the target of the MoP-like hex, will they trigger it, or was it meant to work on hostile spells only?

Hostile only.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajc2123

I believe this is the reason you and I cannot come to a agreement on this suggestion. You want the mesmer to at least be on par with other classes, which is totally understandable, I just want more of the mesmers mesmerness to be usefull, even if they aren't on par with other classes.

On a completely subjective level - I used Ether Lord in it's current version. I use AP to fuel Burdens. As I said before, Arcane Languor is my favourite elite in the game. I didn't run CoP. I try use Tease in HM.
Does that mean that these are good options?
No.

And that's the problem: unless you change something drastically so that the guy is brought up to speed with the rest of the guys, the guy is going to stay crap.
And you can already be crap without wasting any resources on the guy.

Given how PvE is designed and works - "mesmery" things can not work.

Don't get me wrong - I support a skill like this as part of a big package to rework mesmers. But:
1. don't touch EL because I LOVE the current version

2. this skill will not do anything for mesmers in terms of viability, unless it goes over the top. And that means, as I said, tank'n'spank with 6 mesmers trashing crap.

ajc2123 · Feb 28, 2010, 03:06 PM // 15:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Hostile only.

On a completely subjective level - I used Ether Lord in it's current version. I use AP to fuel Burdens. As I said before, Arcane Languor is my favourite elite in the game. I didn't run CoP. I try use Tease in HM.
Does that mean that these are good options?
No.

And that's the problem: unless you change something drastically so that the guy is brought up to speed with the rest of the guys, the guy is going to stay crap.
And you can already be crap without wasting any resources on the guy.

Given how PvE is designed and works - "mesmery" things can not work.

Don't get me wrong - I support a skill like this as part of a big package to rework mesmers. But:
1. don't touch EL because I LOVE the current version

2. this skill will not do anything for mesmers in terms of viability, unless it goes over the top. And that means, as I said, tank'n'spank with 6 mesmers trashing crap.

What about Ethereal Burden? It has a factions clone if anyone used it, and it was a lot of energy for a single target hex....granted you GOt energy but...meh. lol.

upier · Feb 28, 2010, 04:19 PM // 16:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajc2123

What about Ethereal Burden? It has a factions clone if anyone used it, and it was a lot of energy for a single target hex....granted you GOt energy but...meh. lol.

I am pretty sure they could easily find a mesmer skill that would be worth reworking.

(Price of Pride anyone?)

(Besides, even if they'd change EL, I'd bitch for a week and then something would distract me and I'd move on.

)

miriforst · Feb 28, 2010, 04:39 PM // 16:39

totaly...

/SIGNED

finally mesmers could have a use of energy denial in pve

keep up the ideas Ajc2123

drkn · Feb 28, 2010, 08:09 PM // 20:09

cut the recharge. 5s.
add "when energy is stolen/disrupted that way, ether lord ends".

OR

cut the recharge. 8s
add "when energy is stolen/disrupted twice that way, ether lord ends".

as i liked to say it... the possibilities are endless.

voila, op problem solved.

Scary · Mar 26, 2010, 11:58 AM // 11:58

Here some more changes... would be nice if they indeed buff the mesmer to make it a worthy PvE player

Chaos storm ....: Spell. Deals 5...12...14 damage each second (10 seconds). Hits foes adjacent to target's initial location. Causes 1...6...7 Energy loss to foes casting a spell.

5 1 30

PvE.:........ Hex Spell. Deals 5...12...14 damage each second (10 seconds). Hits foes adjacent to target's initial location. Causes nockdown and dazed condition to foe’s using a spell or shout.

5 1 15

Cry of Frustration...:Spell. If target foe is using a skill, that foe and all foes in the area are interrupted and take 10...37...44 damage.

10 ¼ 15

PvE.:........Hex Spell. If target foe is using a skill, that foe and all foes in the area are interrupted and take 10...25...35 damage and causes –2 energy degeneration 2...3...5
seconds.

10 1 15

Shatter Hex...: Spell. Removes a hex from target ally. Removal effect: deals 30...102...120 damage to foes near this ally

15 1 10

PvE.:........ Removes a hex from target ally. Hexes foe’s near this ally causes
Causes -1...3...3 Health degeneration (5 seconds) end effect foes move 50% slower
(4 seconds)

15 1 10

Arcane languor...: Elite Hex Spell. (1...8...10 seconds.) Target foe's spells cause Exhaustion.

10 2 15

PvE.:........ Elite Hex Spell. (1...8...10 seconds.) Target foe's spells and Elite skills cause Exhaustion. End effect causes weakness (5 seconds)

15 1 20

Illusionary Weaponary...
Elite Enchantment Spell. (30 seconds.) Illusionary Weaponry deals 8...34...40 damage to foes when you make melee attacks against them. Your melee attacks do not hit, miss, or fail to hit. Your melee attacks deal no damage. Effects from your weapons or attack skills won't be applied to foes.

5 1 25

PvE.:........ Elite Enchantment Spell. (30 seconds.) Illusionary Weaponry deals 8...25...32 damage to foes when you make melee attacks against them.. causes nockdown to foe’s using enchantment removal skills.

10 1 15

The list could be so much longer, but maybe others have some nice ideas to

MagmaRed · Mar 26, 2010, 12:45 PM // 12:45

Scary, try suggesting something that is not over powered. Each one of those skill suggestions is too powerful. And it does not mean a Mesmer will become a PvE team member. Outside of Languor, all of those skills can be used by a secondary Mesmer just as easily.

Painbringer · Mar 26, 2010, 02:35 PM // 14:35

Spirit shackles… Yeah baby Shiro will not know what hit him.

I do like the idea stealing energy and damage associated with it. Energy denial is such a waist in PVE and could be a great add on. Ether lord moved to fast casting and changed to an enchantment. While enchanted by Ether Lord all skills that remove energy from target or adjacent foes cause 1-5,6 7 damage for every point of energy lost.

Signed

Cuilan · Mar 26, 2010, 06:56 PM // 18:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajc2123

Because I don't want the Mesmer to become just another overpowered class.

I do. Overpowered is the norm and minor changes won't make much difference.